Faithful Safeguarding Podcast with Petros
Faithful Safeguarding is a short-form podcast dedicated to enhancing the safety and well-being of faith communities, focusing on providing insightful, expert-led discussions on safeguarding practices and addressing the unique challenges faced by faith-based organisations.
Topics include child protection, safer recruitment, creating a safeguarding culture, online safety, protecting vulnerable adults, disability and safeguarding, reporting and recovering from safeguarding incidents, risk management, and fostering diversity and inclusion.
Hosted by Madison Clarke from Petros, the podcast aims to raise awareness, educate, and foster a culture of proactive safeguarding among people within faith organisations.
DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed by guests within the content are solely the guest's and do not reflect the opinions and beliefs of Petros or its affiliates.
Faithful Safeguarding Podcast with Petros
Ep 8 Can We Talk About Abuse in Faith? Understanding the Tough Topics with Tina Campbell
In this episode, we meet Tina Campbell, an international safeguarding consultant with extensive international experience, to discuss why everyone is responsible for supporting safeguarding efforts within the faith community.
We dive into the role of leadership, and the shared responsibility of safeguarding. Tina shares insights on spiritual abuse, the challenges of addressing sensitive topics, and the significance of external consultants in implementing effective safeguarding policies.
Key takeaways
- Safeguarding is a collective responsibility that requires active participation from all members.
- Strong leadership in faith communities significantly enhances the effectiveness of safeguarding practices.
- Spiritual abuse is a critical issue that needs more awareness and understanding within religious contexts.
- Clear and accessible safeguarding language can empower communities to engage in safeguarding efforts.
- Training on sensitive topics like coercive control and manipulation is essential for safeguarding.
Connect with Tina Campbell
Tina Campbell on LinkedIn
Connect with Petros:
Welcome to Faithful Safeguarding, the podcast dedicated to promoting safety and well-being within faith communities. I'm your host, madison Clark from Petrox, a not-for-profit dedicated to safeguarding and protecting those most vulnerable in our communities. Each episode will bring you expert insights, real-world experiences and practical advice to help you implement effective safeguarding practices in your faith organization. Together, we can create environments where everyone feels safe, valued and protected. Thank you for joining us on this important journey. Now let's dive into today's episode.
Speaker 1:Today, I'm excited to welcome Tina Campbell, an independent safeguarding consultant with extensive international experience. Tina works with religious congregations to design safeguarding training, review policies and conduct preliminary investigations. With a background in theology, education and psychotherapy, including trauma-focused therapy, tina has worked extensively with religious groups on safeguarding topics. In our conversation, we'll talk about what makes safeguarding a shared responsibility. We'll discuss how clear, accessible safeguarding language can make a huge difference. Tina talks about how she approaches sensitive topics like coercive control, spiritual abuse and same-sex attraction in a safe, supportive way. We also discuss Tina's experience working with survivors and victims of abuse. In this episode, tina helps us understand the actionable steps she takes to support religious congregations with safeguarding. Let's get started. The views and opinions expressed by guests on this podcast are solely that of the guests and do not represent the opinions and beliefs of the Petros organisation. Tina, it is so wonderful to have you here on the podcast, thank you. I want to start by asking you to share a bit about your work with religious congregations internationally and how this work has shaped your approach to safeguarding.
Speaker 2:Okay, thank you, and thank you for the invitation as well. In this opportunity, I think, particularly working with religious congregations that are international, which all of them are, except for one province, and even then that province is for Britain and Zimbabwe it's given me an understanding of the challenges and that perception of internationally, some of the cultural challenges, some of the difficulties, a real concept of being on a safeguarding journey. But we are all at different stages and I have to say, teaching at the IADC, at the Gregorian, even though it's a relatively small amount, previously of diploma students for six years and now they're continuing on from that the first year, licentiate students. They are very much an international group of primarily religious priests and sisters, brothers and the smaller number of lay people. But that has an impact on my understanding of safeguarding and I also would say the ones that I work with now, which is a significant number of congregations. They've invited me. It isn't that I've been imposed on them. They've actually said can you come and help us, Can we talk to you?
Speaker 1:That sounds wonderful and, yeah, that importance of being welcomed in, so people are really ready to understand what it is to safeguard and how to improve their safeguarding. And we all know that for safeguarding to be effective it has to be this collective responsibility that people are willing to do. But in practice, what do you think actually really encourages all parties to take part and do their bit?
Speaker 2:The critical factors for me, particularly over the last four years in particular, are if there's strong leadership. Strong leadership is critical. So the number of conferences, training days, five-day, three-day courses I have delivered to congregations, when the leadership team is present and not only present but participating fully, that makes a huge difference for others, absolutely massive difference, really. And to have a real sense of courage you know we have. This isn't something that is imposed. We feel called to do this work in safeguarding, so we're not frightened by civil law or by scandal, but actually we want to embrace this. And very often, particularly with religious men and women, when I ask them to look at their charism of their congregation, that's a real moment of enlightenment because most of the time they will say but this is our charism, we're doing this and it's just transferring that into a safeguarding context which is about having robust policies and training. But it's just transferring that into a safeguarding context which is about having robust policies and training, but it's also about living out the commitment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really important I love that of really living out the commitment and and it is being a calling and I guess, alongside this sort of strong leadership and having courage in order to actually approach safeguarding, I know that many groups have opted to implement safeguarding standards to also try and make the practice a bit simpler, I suppose, or easier to follow. I know that in Australia they have 10 national Catholic safeguarding standards and I was wondering how do you think safeguarding standards benefit religious groups? And then, alternatively, what are the challenges of actually implementing?
Speaker 2:them. I'm known by many religious as being slightly obsessive about having safeguarding standards and I have my own created template for safeguarding policies which many religious use. And I've worked with a number of congregations now in different ways to help them to write their own safeguarding policy because it gives them a real sense of ownership. But the standards I always explain to be the scaffolding. We need the scaffolding to understand what's required of us and also it becomes a more manageable document if it's very clear this is what comes under this standard. So if we have a standard, for example, of the support and care of victims, we need to have in there exactly what that congregation is going to do to care for victims. So it's very helpful.
Speaker 2:Some of the challenges are, of course, the implementation. So having a policy is a first step. Translating that policy into a province context in different countries can be very challenging and, of course, inevitably when people are afraid, there's some resistance, there's some denial and there's fear and real fear and also even cost implications in some countries in terms of actually implementing the policy. And the critical area in terms of implementing the policy, of course, is having very good professional training. So it's not just a tick-box exercise, definitely.
Speaker 1:And it's great to hear of all the support you can offer different congregations with templates and making sure that policies really are their own. But, as you've just said, it's not just about the scaffolding, it's also, I guess, the building, which is. You know the training, and I saw on LinkedIn, as you know, that you did some training on manipulation and coercive control in ministry, which is a really sensitive topic. How do you actually address these topics in your seminars.
Speaker 2:This came out of a congregation I'm working with where we've had a series of webinars and following each webinar, the safeguarding sorry the central leadership team always attend each webinar and then, following it, they have a period of evaluation from those who've attended as well as the senior leadership team and they talk, then they feed back to me and say these are the issues that are coming up in our congregation. And then that feed back to me and say these are the issues that are coming up in our congregation. And then that leads me to create the next one. So I did one on grooming and the bond which grooming we also try and explain is manipulation, because grooming as a word I know does not translate very well into various languages, but the grooming creating the bond between the perpetrator and the victim.
Speaker 2:And towards the end of that presentation I threw in a couple of slides on coercive control and the response was please tell us more about coercive control and the difference with that training which has surprisingly provoked a lot of interest or maybe I shouldn't be too surprised is because I focused on manipulation and coercive control in ministry but also in community life, and this is a recurring theme for me at the moment is transferring the safeguarding skills and knowledge we have in ministry, but how do we transfer that into our life together in community? Because that's a critical thing Safeguarding as I'm sure you know this and many people listening to this will realise this isn't just part of the day job. This is about how we live in community and how we manage healthy relationships, healthy boundaries and respect for each other. So it's crossing that bridge, really, between what we do outside and how do we live it out in community life.
Speaker 1:And it resonates quite strongly with religious, religious congregations, which is very helpful that it's touched them in that way definitely, and it's so important, like you said, that translation from a specific area religious life to then sort of in your every day and we also see at petros sort of the idea to manage professional boundaries but also personal boundaries, you know, in your family or in your volunteer role, in your work.
Speaker 1:we're not taught those skills necessarily and organizations don't really have a playbook of what to do and the rules and what's acceptable and what's not. So when you have people who can come along and really talk about those boundaries, and also I think it's incredible that people are really understanding and accepting to understand the role of grooming in ministry and in people's day-to-day lives, because once people know the signs you know parents in particular then you can prevent it happening and you can exactly and stop it.
Speaker 1:Another topic I'm really interested in is spiritual abuse, which is often misunderstood. I was wondering if you could take a minute to kind of explain it and talk about its relation and the implications for safeguarding.
Speaker 2:Yes, indeed, I think it's still in some parts of the world and indeed in some parts of the church.
Speaker 2:It's still evolving in terms of the understanding, and I think it's critically important to have an understanding. I'm very heartened that the Vatican, indeed Pope Francis himself, is starting to say we need to look at spiritual abuse and I know that Hans Zollner has said this many times and I would strongly endorse it that any abuse which happens in a church context, whether that's by a priest, a brother, a religious or any other person, including someone in a safeguarding role in the church, whatever that abuse is, has an element of spiritual abuse. Because if we are proclaiming, we are stating we are people of the gospel. There's an expectation on us which is a very high expectation about our behavior, and when abuse happens, any other form of abuse, there is a spiritual element. But aside from that, I would also talk to people about the misuse of scripture and church teaching used to manipulate and control, and I would also say that sometimes, indeed, having said positive things about the charism of a congregation, sometimes that charism can be misused spiritually in order to control and manipulate others reports.
Speaker 1:it was very much how you would identify it spiritual abuse. Like you said, all abuse if it's carried out within, you know if it's the religious or a priest has an element of it being spiritual abuse. But you could see that theme running through and I guess I also wonder how it can be tackled, because if it's harder to understand and to see, is there any tips or anything that you can offer of how we could kind of prevent it happening? Or people accidentally, I guess, falling into being spiritually abused or actually abusing spiritually but not understanding that's what they're doing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's an element of this and I teach about this quite often is the fact that a perpetrator of abuse, particularly if it's somebody in the church, will use cognitive distortions to justify the abuse, and very often those cognitive distortions are driven by phrases like God wants this to happen, god wants me to do this, god has asked me to abuse you, this is God's way, special way of loving you, and so on.
Speaker 2:And many of those cognitive distortions are incredibly disturbed and disturbing for others to realize, and I'm yet to find any research which has been focused on. What impact does that have on the spiritual life of a victim, and I have to say, especially if it's a child victim? Have on the spiritual life of a victim, and I have to say, especially if it's a child victim, what understanding of God do they have that they are told and they are convinced that God wanted the abuse to happen. So I think there are areas in this that need to be looked at and explored. And I also think about again, priests, religious who have been accused. Does anyone give attention to their spiritual life, given that they have been carrying? Does anyone give attention to their spiritual life, given that they have been carrying, in order to commit the abuse, this belief that this is God asking them to do this. So I think this is another level of spiritual abuse.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thinking about the different levels of how it can affect not only the victim but also the perpetrator and how that distorts their understanding. I remember when I was doing my undergraduate dissertation into the sexual abuse in the Catholic Church I spoke with priests who had come from institutions of abuse but weren't abusers themselves and the spiritual effect on them that their fellow brothers had abused. You know their family. Their colleagues had abused children that they knew, I think, the repercussions of that and I didn't think at the time I quite comprehended, actually spiritually, the effect that that would have on someone and their faith.
Speaker 2:It's quite devastating and I've known families and relatives of, again, people in the church who've been accused and convicted of sexual abuse and other forms of abuse and the impact that does have is devastating on their faith and their ability to question.
Speaker 2:What is this all about? And, again, I don't know if we have enough support systems in terms of the church in terms of how to support the relatives and friends of those who've been accused, because very often they will remove themselves from the church because they don't feel they are any longer welcomed or they feel the communal shame they will feel, which is not theirs. I mean, I was very struck by the news account of Giselle Pellicott in recent months where she talked about. She either says something like shame is now changing sides or shame has changed sides. You know, in terms of those who abused her should be carrying the shame, not the victims. And I think that this is yet another area in this whole spiritual abuse narrative that we still need to do so much work on it's incredible that she made the trials public and what that probably did for victims.
Speaker 1:Yeah, really inspirational. But I guess, like you said, with it being attached to shame for victims, because they're really sensitive topics and I guess it needs to have churches be really aware of these topics and then not be as shameful so that they can discuss them, bring people back in to religious life if they are carrying this joint shame that isn't theirs from being a victim, having family members who have been convicted. So how do you approach sort of these really sensitive issues with religious congregations? I'm also thinking issues like same-sex attraction.
Speaker 2:How do you approach them safely so people can really learn and understand without the shame I think I've been doing a lot of work with formators, both with formators who are experienced in the role of formation and also some who are training as formators. And I start by inviting them to think about the parallel process which happens when we're together. Inviting them to think about the parallel process which happens when we're together. So I've done three or again three or five day courses with formators and said you know, you're sitting here as a formator thinking about your ministry, whether it's new or you've been doing this for a while, but you're also thinking about your time as a formee. The parallel process is you will think about your own time in formation and how does that influence you as a formator? I often compare it to conversations about family of origin. In your family of origin, how did you deal with difficulties? Did you have difficult conversations? Was it quite verbally volatile, not in a safeguarding sense, but a very lively discourse in your house when things needed to be addressed? Or was there a common theme or thread of we will not have arguments, we have to have a peaceful house. So this is about difficult conversations which I think should pervade every aspect of safeguarding, and we need to be modelling this a bit better, I fear, but certainly in religious life, this need to talk about difficult concepts, and with formators.
Speaker 2:I start by talking about. You know, we are human beings. You know, just because a man or a woman enters religious life does not mean they leave behind their humanity or their development as a man or a woman, particularly if they're going into religious life very young, which is the case in some parts of the world, as you know. And how do they develop then? As lay people, not as lay people, sorry, but how do they develop as human beings in this whole process? And not forget that there will be times when they will feel attracted to somebody, they will possibly become too close to someone, they will have emotions, they will have needs. When these things happen, how do they address it? And that's where the difficult conversation skills come into play. And having someone if there's nobody they feel they can talk to, what does that do in terms of their development and their sexual integration as people as well?
Speaker 1:And those skills of managing those challenging interactions and having those difficult conversations.
Speaker 1:It is a skill, isn't it that if you know someone is struggling with something and then they hear one of your talks and they think, oh, someone's talking about this openly, I can relate, even if it's not the exact issue. I think that's so impactful and must have a real influence on people, and I know that we were speaking outside of this podcast about everyone that you come across and the influence that you have, but also about the importance of hearing survivors in your work. Yes, and I wanted to touch on how has working with victims of abuse shaped your work and going forward and historically, as well, yeah, I, I've been.
Speaker 2:I have honestly been very blessed with the number of victims. And I just want to clarify I tend to use the word victim because very often, again in Rome at Hans' Institute, we talk about victims first. So I tend to talk about victims rather than victim survivors or survivors, and I want to acknowledge that some people who have suffered abuse do not wish to have a label at all or an identity, either as a victim or a survivor. And I want to acknowledge that some people who have suffered abuse do not wish to have a label at all or an identity, either as a victim or survivor. I've been very blessed with people who have come into my life and said you know, can I share this with you? Can you help me with that? Can I just keep checking in with you every so often about whatever it is?
Speaker 2:And actually this has been very powerful for me because very often in training people will say oh, how do you respond to a victim? Well, I know that I do teach a course on responding to victims, but no one victim is like any other. They are all incredibly different and what people perceive as might be horrendous abuse story for them, others might not see it in a. They might see it in a different way. So I think it's important to see the individual nature and also the journey that people go on, and I know that victims, many victims, will want justice or a sense of justice. But I think as a church we have to reframe justice. What on earth does it mean? Because it isn't about seeing the perpetrator going to prison, it's not about even seeing the perpetrator dying. There's all sorts of understandings of what justice means and they've certainly my goodness, they've certainly changed me and they've changed how I respond to people and what sort of journey this has been for me as well.
Speaker 1:That's wonderful. Yeah, I guess the importance of hearing each victim's story and addressing and relating to that specifically, not having necessarily a set template of, well, this you've, this has happened to you. I guess this is what you want to happen as justice and it's actually hearing their version of justice. I know we work with the conflict mediator, matthew gamage, who speaks about in conflict mediation situations you need not to presume what people want the outcome to be, and often that will change for them. They might say I need this to heal and for resolution. Actually, through the process they realize they don't or it's something else and that importance of healing and I think it must be really wonderful for victims to have you as someone possibly external to the situation to be able to confide in and talk to. And that leads me on nicely to my next question about the role of external consultants in not only for helping victims but also in offering fresh perspectives for safeguarding policies and practices and for organisations, sort of what role is there for people like you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a good question. I think there is an increasing number of lay persons working in this role. I have to say I don't think statistically there are more women working in safeguarding than men. Again, there's no research about this, because I have looked several times, but there are more women and that's sometimes to do with the role, and also women working in parishes and safeguarding as safeguarding contact or officers or whatever their role is at a parish to artisan level. So there are more women in this area. But I think there's a need for more women to be represented as well in terms of what they are contributing to the church, because many will do this in a very quiet way and not actually be recognised, whereas, you know, sometimes it's more easy for men to be seen as taking leadership in this area, particularly if it's an ordained priest, I have to say. But I would also say both roles require a huge amount of courage at times. It can be very frustrating at times, but I think it's important to have that lived experience as well.
Speaker 2:I'm very, very straightforward with a victim. If I'm actually they may not know that I have a consultancy with a congregation where they suffered their abuse I'm very upfront and say look, I need to tell you this and inevitably, thank God they have been able to keep that respect, that distance. Okay, yes, I'm in a consultancy with a congregation where you were abused 40, 50 years ago. I'm not working with those who've been accused, so it's having to be very upfront. But also I think, coming from a I'll say I'm a Roman Catholic, but coming from a lay perspective and having worked in other organizations and for me that's been education and psychotherapy it brings with it a level of accountability in terms of professionalism. That's really important because very often you know situations are not documented properly, they're not followed up formally, it all becomes too relaxed and informal. And how often in situations of abuse in the church we find out that situations were not given the right professional attention they should have had, because individuals thought they could resolve these matters themselves, for example.
Speaker 1:Yeah, accountability is so important and also takes away the pressure off. I guess If you know you've got someone external holding you accountable, it takes the pressure off. I guess if you know you've got someone external holding you accountable takes the pressure off you having to keep yourself accountable and your friends perhaps that may lead into those challenging conversations you have to have, but if you can say no, actually no.
Speaker 2:Tina said we have to do this and it's, it's fun to know, yeah, that happens a few times, and even sometimes, I know, even in in rome, sometimes I I'll be called in just maybe even for an informal meeting or maybe a formal meeting, or just to have lunch with the leadership team, and I arrive in the refectory and I can feel that sense of oh goodness, tina's here, something must have happened. Get your paperwork out. Exactly, yes, something's happened.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a big presence to have. That must be quite nice sometimes, oh, wonderful. I want to touch on you mentioned there about the role of women and the crucial role within safeguarding in a variety of roles, and often it's commented on the wonderful work and hardworking of women and people who are using their spare time to really help people through safeguarding work. And I know that the International Safeguarding Conference in Rome the focus is on women. So maybe this is a nice chance for you to sort of tell our audience, our listeners, a little bit about the conference this year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we are very excited about the theme this year. I'm delighted we're talking about women of faith, women of strength, and so the International Conference. For some years, quite a long time, there was a situation in an agreement amongst five Episcopal conferences which founded the Anglophone Sacred Garland Conference. So it was Scotland, england and Wales, ireland, australia and America. Now, I have to say, when I was working for seven years as the bishops conference safeguarding coordinator for Scotland, I was in awe of the fact that they are an Episcopal conference of only eight bishops up against the US not against, but you know, equal standing. So, on a five-year rota, we would host the conference in Rome Mainly. It shifted eventually completely to Rome with another country. The bishops decided in 2019, I mean, it was a huge financial cost as well that that wouldn't continue and Hans Olner called myself and three other colleagues together and said right, we're going to step into this gap. And so myself and one other or two others sorry on the committee are the founding members alongside Hans Zollner. And the conference has grown and grown and grown, which is wonderful, and we're really looking forward to it.
Speaker 2:And this year I have put together what we have as a structure is to have international online working groups, so we have 12 of them happening this year. Some of them are starting in the next few days. They have a February, march, april and May meeting we provide. I've this year provided them with reading material and questions to focus on in their working groups and then they will feed that back into the conference in June.
Speaker 2:But we depend on an incredible number of really generous people who are doing this. Some of them will come to Rome the facilitators. Many will come to Rome and some who participate will come to Rome, but many can't because of funding and time. But they will have benefited from having these online meetings to look at these serious issues, which is fantastic, and so I provided that material for them this year. But it's really good to have that understanding of they prepare for the conference because it's all linked into the themes of the conference, and I was extremely sceptical a few years ago when someone said could we not do this? But actually it's amazing the generosity of people in terms of how this continues to happen.
Speaker 1:Wow that's really nice to hear behind the scenes a little bit, because I was at the conference last year and it's just wonderful. It's so well organised, it's fascinating, and I actually think my favourite part was just the variety of people that you meet, especially within the working groups, and the thoughts that you get.
Speaker 1:It's such a international conference. There's different, you know, genders, ages, nationalities, races, and it because of that there's such a rich ground for conversation and for discussion. And that also got me thinking because of how varied the participants are in the conference and how international it is. I guess that also sometimes reflects the varieties within different congregations or within different groups as well.
Speaker 1:You can't always just target one type of person, because we all come from varied backgrounds, so do you have any tips on how religious organisations can make their safeguarding and their safeguarding language really accessible and meaningful to all members so every single person is included within the safeguarding practices?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it takes a great deal of patience. I mean, in a sense, the people coming to the international conference. They're already fully on board, mainly they are fully on board. A lot of them will be former graduates of the diploma and licentiate in safeguarding, which is always wonderful to see them coming back and sharing what it's like to be really out there in the field and away from the relative comfort of sitting in a classroom in Rome. But I think it involves a lot of patience and an incredible amount of sensitivity and I don't always get that right.
Speaker 2:There are certain things in aspects of safeguarding and types of abuse I feel very strongly about.
Speaker 2:But I have to understand the balance between something is a cultural issue and actually it's a cultural issue which is condoning criminal behaviour, and I talk very often about the narrow lens of safeguarding and the wider lens.
Speaker 2:So one of the aspects of the narrow lens is seeing that safeguarding is only about child abuse and actually only about child sexual abuse. So if that's not happening, or we don't want to believe it's happening, we're doing very well. That's a very narrow view, whereas the wider one is saying we need to think about all aspects of abuse, which includes children and vulnerable adults, but it takes an awful lot of sensitivity. And two things really people often say to me is I've taken away the fear and I don't know how that happens, but it does and also it's that personal contact, being in presence and I do travel a lot, but being in presence with somebody is so much easier than actually trying to talk to 30, 300, 500 people on a Zoom, for example. It's that connectivity that happens and people share then, because underneath some of the difficulties, of course, there's often a lot of fear for many reasons yeah, and that in-person contact can really encourage people to share a bit more.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's so handy we can do things over zoom, but it does take away that personal connection and I think, it's incredible. I can so see you do have a talent for taking away the fear.
Speaker 1:You're very as a person obviously very knowledgeable but very comforting, and I can really see how that translates. I feel I feel completely fearless in this conversation. That's reassuring. Yeah, exactly, oh, it's been so wonderful to get to know you. Yeah, everything the great work that you do and also your expertise, and I'm really excited to say that next time I see you we'll be in rome over perhaps indeed in person, in person, definitely definitely definitely.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you so much, tina, and speak with you soon. Thanks very much, thank you. Thank you for joining us on this episode of faithful safeguarding. We hope you found our discussion insightful and inspiring. If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps us improve and reach more people dedicated to safeguarding and faith communities. If there is a person or organization who you think would benefit from this episode, please hit the share button. Or organisation who you think would benefit from this episode? Please hit the share button. For additional resources and information, visit our website at petrosorguk. Stay tuned for our next episode, where we'll continue to explore important safeguarding topics with leading experts. Until then, stay safe and keep making a difference.