Ep 5 Creating Inclusive Safeguarding Practices with Anjum Mouj

In this powerful episode, we welcome Anjum Mouj, a highly experienced trainer, facilitator, and consultant, who has dedicated her career to advancing safeguarding practices and creating safer, more inclusive spaces for all. 

Key Takeaways:

• How safeguarding policies should be intersectional and reflective of real, lived experiences.
• The need for safeguarding frameworks to be adaptable and continuously evolving.
• Practical insights into inclusive practices, especially around unconscious bias and marginalised voices.
• The role of listening in building trust and fostering community resilience.

With a background in roles like Director and Training Manager at the London Black Women’s Project and Imkaan, Anjum brings deep insights into safeguarding practices that truly reflect the diversity of communities they serve. She currently trains with Solace Women’s Aid and has collaborated with the NSPCC to develop courses in child protection, supervision skills, and safer recruitment.

Our conversation covers the critical need for safeguarding policies to be living documents that evolve alongside the communities they aim to protect. Anjum emphasises the importance of intersectionality in safeguarding, highlighting how policies should account for diverse lived experiences, particularly those of marginalised groups. 

She shares practical ways organisations can create safeguarding frameworks that are inclusive, sensitive to unconscious bias, and centred around individuals' real needs and circumstances.

We also discuss the significance of listening actively to marginalised voices and how inclusive practices can help build stronger, more resilient communities. Anjum’s passion for safeguarding shines through as she shares strategies for building trust, embracing diversity, and fostering belonging within safeguarding structures.

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Transcript

Madison (00:03)
Welcome to Faithful Safeguarding, the podcast dedicated to promoting safety and wellbeing within faith communities. I'm your host, Madison Clark from Petros, a not -for -profit dedicated to safeguarding and protecting those most vulnerable in our communities. Each episode will bring you expert insights, real -world experiences, and practical advice to help you implement effective safeguarding practices in your faith organisation. Together, we can create environments where everyone feels safe,

valued and protected. Thank you for joining us on this important journey. Now let's dive into today's episode.

Madi (00:40)
In this episode of the Faithful Safeguarding podcast, we welcome Anjum Mourj, a highly experienced trainer and consultant with a wealth of knowledge in safeguarding, child protection, unconscious bias and inclusion. Anjum has held numerous key roles, including director and training manager for London Black Women's Project, and is currently delivering training for Solace Women's Aid. She has also partnered with the NSPCC since 2010.

developing and delivering safeguarding courses with a focus on both children and adults. In our discussion, we talk about the importance of diversity, inclusion and belonging in safeguarding. Anjum shares insights from her extensive experience working with diverse organisations across sectors and emphasises the importance of safeguarding policies that are intersectional and responsive to the lived experiences of marginalised groups.

She passionately discusses how safeguarding policies should be living documents, constantly evolving to reflect real world challenges. Join us as we explore how listening to marginalised voices and making safeguarding practices more inclusive can bring real positive change.

Madison (01:49)
The views and opinions expressed by guests on this podcast are solely that of the guests and do not represent the opinions and beliefs of the Petros organization.

Madi (01:59)
Anjum, it is so lovely to have you on the podcast. So to start with, I wanna ask what does diversity, inclusion and belonging mean in the context of safeguarding and particularly within faith-based organizations?

Anjum Mouj - She/her (02:12)
Wow, what a question, I love it. I just love this conversation. Diversity, inclusion and belonging, well that's the Holy Trinity of safeguarding, if I can put it that way. In faith-based organisations, it's all about ensuring that people from all walks of life, whether they're from the Church of England, a Pentecostal congregation or a choir that returns up for every wedding, feel safe, feel respected.

Safeguard isn't just about don't do bad things, it's about recognising the varied backgrounds of people, where they come from, ensuring that nobody feels like an outsider in God's house. It's about making sure that everybody's amen carries the same weight, regardless of their background. I would say diversity, inclusion, belonging in faith-based safeguarding involve recognising and addressing

The very distinct vulnerabilities that arise from an individual's race, gender, sexual orientation, class or socioeconomic status, it's not just about preventing abuse, but about fostering an environment where all people feel safe, they feel valued, they feel empowered, they feel empowered to report misconduct irrespective of their background.

A notable case that comes to my mind about this and that highlights the lack of diversity and safeguarding is the Royal Commission into Institutionalised Responses to Child Sexual Abuse 2013-2017 in Australia. This inquiry, as you know, revealed that indigenous children and children from non-white disadvantaged backgrounds were disproportionately abused in religious and other institutions. It was their socioeconomic challenges

coupled with cultural alienation, it made them more vulnerable and the Commission's findings stressed the need for faith-based organisations to actively engage with culturally diverse communities, understanding the intersection of race, poverty, faith, to ensure a more inclusive safeguarding measures were taking place. Diversity, inclusion and belonging, well, they're just absolute essential components of safeguarding and ignore them at our peril really.

You know, particularly in faith-based organisation where community and care and core principles kind of underpin, if you like, a framework of safeguarding. Diversity means recognising and valuing differences in race, culture, gender, sexual orientation, I've said, and socio-economic status, making sure every individual, regardless of their background, feels seen, heard and protected.

within the community. Obviously, belonging speaks to the deeper need of individuals to feel that they're truly part of the faith family, that their safety and wellbeing are a priority, and that they are accepted without prejudice. It's important. We've got to be real about this. Diversity, inclusion, and belonging can't be limited to who gets to bring the mince pies to the Christmas bake sale.


Anjum Mouj - She/her (05:13)
As we've just had Christmas, so that might be going on for us in safeguarding terms. It means making sure everybody, from the choir person to the person who only shows up for midnight mass, feels protected and heard. It's more than ticking boxes, obviously. It's about recognising different experiences and vulnerabilities.

Madi (05:32)
Thank you so much. And I just want to take a second to reflect on what you've said. And I absolutely love the phrase, the Holy Trinity of safeguarding. When we're talking about diversity, inclusion and belonging, I think that's just brilliant. And also your quote that ensuring everyone's, know, our men carries the same weight, no matter what your role is within your religious group. I think that's just brilliant. And you've spoken about that.

the sort of importance of intersectional sort of considerations that are needed within safeguarding, reflecting on the Royal Commission suggestions, particularly in regards to children. So I was wondering, how can safeguarding policies be more inclusive to ensure the protection of individuals from diverse backgrounds, including those intersectional considerations like race, culture, and religious minorities as well?

Anjum Mouj - She/her (06:20)
Well, wow, again, what a great question. To be truly inclusive, safeguarding policies have got to actively reflect the experiences and challenges faced by marginalized groups and communities, including obviously racial minorities, people that have been minoritized, racialized, the lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans, queer, plus identifying community, and of course, women.

What this means is recognizing that what constitutes a safeguarding risk might differ across cultures and identities. For instance, lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans, queer individuals might face very unique risks of emotional and spiritual abuse, such as being subjected to harmful conversion therapy practices.

which may still be supported by some religious factions and policies should explicitly prohibit such practices and make it clear that no form of discrimination based on race, gender or sexual orientation will be tolerated. Additionally, church policies should be sensitive to cultural differences in how authority is perceived and how abuse is reported, making sure that there's accessibility for everybody.

including those who feel mistrustful of traditional power structures. Safeguarding policies need to be more flexible than your auntie's or my auntie's interpretation of mosque-appropriate wear or church-appropriate hats. The key is adaptability. Policies need to reflect the person sitting in the pew may have a different cultural understanding of authority or what safeguarding

means maybe in one culture silence is a sign of respect but here we want people to feel confident to speak out when something's not right. We want children to feel confident to be able to speak out when things are not right. Instead of a one size fits all policy churches need safeguarding approaches as diverse as the congregation itself. Think of it like a communion if you like.

gluten-free wafers and non-alcoholic wine because everybody is different and no one, no one should be left out.

Madi (08:26)
love that idea that safeguarding policies, can't just be these tick box exercises, they have to reflect the lived experience of people. And the safeguarding policies have got to be as diverse as the congregation and people within that religious group. I think that's a really good line of thought for safeguarding leads in particular who are writing these policies and making sure that they work in practice really keep in mind.

With that in mind as well, what are some of the challenges that maybe you've encountered in sort of promoting a culture of inclusion within church or religious groups, within safeguarding efforts?

Anjum Mouj - She/her (09:00)
Well, a notable safeguarding curse that comes to my mind is about a UK mosque where the case centered around concerns raised about a teacher's disciplinary methods in the madrasa. know, concerned parents reported the case, they approached the mosque management. The outcome of that was, you know, I think effectively there was an investigation.

There was an assessment of the Moss safeguarding policies. The teacher's employment was terminated.

and there was a strengthening of the safeguarding policies, there was mandatory safeguarding for the staff and community awareness sessions. So there was a lot of lessons that were learned through that. Clear and accessible safeguarding policies, engaging with authorities, educating the community, and it really emphasised the need for all UK MOS to prioritise safeguarding by establishing clear policies. The challenges are, I think, really broad.

that the fact that the parents came and reported it, adults were listened to because they were listening to their children. That defines for us the importance of creating cultures and communities. And I think one big challenge in terms of that lovely church hierarchy, which often means father knows best and father is almost always a cisgender man, this top-down structure.

has a way of shielding leaders from accountability, whether it's about abuse or refusing to admit that no one likes the Christmas sermons, annual pun fest if you like, in promoting inclusion. Often there is a culture of defensiveness. No one likes to admit that the church, the mosque, or a place that's meant to provide sanctuary.

has also been a place where harm happens. The Peter Ball scandal is for me a stark example. He's that former disgraced bishop who was protected by senior figures within the church despite multiple, allegations of abuse. Those involved failed to take the concern seriously,

because of Ball's status and connections. Challenging this culture requires not just policy changes but also a shift in attitudes, especially how we deal with uncomfortable truths. Those case examples run throughout all faith communities in institutions and places where we have those power dynamics, the hierarchical and patriarchal structure of many religious institutions.

has been a significant barrier, in my opinion, to promoting a culture of inclusion. know, there's the classic, isn't there? We've always done it this way. That's a real crowd favorite in faith settings. And there's the challenge of actually getting people to realize that safeguarding isn't just for children. Actually, it's for everybody. And some might think it's a bit, you know,

I don't know, PC gone mad, but actually it's about ensuring that nobody is left behind. The biggest challenge? Convincing some of the more traditional folk that asking for feedback isn't an attack on the church or any faith institution, but it's a way to make it a safer place for everybody. Sort of like trying to get everybody to agree on a hymn if you like. Impossible, but worth trying.

Madi (12:21)
Definitely. it is that you really highlighted that idea of that culture of defensiveness and protection that we've seen in so many cases. And it sounds like in the case you mentioned at the UK mosque that actually lots of lessons were learned that went against that culture of defensiveness, that actually people really listened and listened to children and then listened to the adults that were expressing concerns. And I think that's a really great.

to see how we don't have to, or just because it's the way it's been, and because we want to protect and defend, it doesn't mean it's a weakness, that we need to listen to these vulnerabilities and these issues. And sort of going against that culture of defensiveness, I wonder how faith communities can ensure that safeguarding practices are sensitive to the unique needs of marginalized groups. How can they listen and be proactive and make sure they don't just dismiss these unique needs that we know are there?

Anjum Mouj - She/her (13:14)
Well, I think to start, what we have to do is that there's a lot of unlearning that needs to take place in faith-based communities. Assuming that everybody's got the same relationship with the church as your average middle-class parishioners who's there every Sunday, actually for some faith communities, that isn't an absolute refuge from a hostile world. And for others, they can feel...

it is unwelcoming. If you've ever been into a freezing church, you'll know exactly what I mean. Freezing church on Christmas morning, actually, when the heatings failed, that is a hard one. So actually, it's about everybody feeling welcomed and feeling that there's a place for them and there's an ability to have their voice heard.

The Jehovah's Witness sexual abuse cases in the United Kingdom show really how marginalization within tightly knit communities can prevent victims from coming forward. The threat of being disfellowshipped, exhumed, eukated as it were, is a powerful, powerful deterrent. And we've seen that in faith-based communities. We've seen that within the context of...

when young children in mosques have raised concerns about sexual abuse that they have been taken away from the mosque, not the imam. We've seen that throughout, where cases just haven't run through perhaps in the way that they should have. The courage of a young person to speak out and then for them to be told that they're just not believed is a powerful deterrent.

for everybody else around it and in the Jehovah's Witnesses sexual abuse cases, just understanding for those who've got no support outside the community, that's an impossible choice. These are salient bits of identity. So to address the issues, safeguarding policies have to recognise such unique barriers and offer those alternatives.

pathways for victims to report abuse confidently, partnering with external organisations and agencies that can provide a lifeline for those who fear retribution. Faith communities must engage with marginalised groups, tailoring safeguarding practices to address their specific concerns. From the Jehovah's Witness child sexual abuse case, including

the Candice Conte case in 2012. That really, for me, provides a very cautionary tale. Conte won a landmark lawsuit against the witnesses for failing to protect her as a child from sexual abuse. And in this case, the witnesses' insular and patriarchal culture

which suppressed external scrutiny, failed to accommodate the needs of female victims or provide adequate protection for lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans, queer members. So I think in answer to your question, for starters, you've got to actually ask those marginalised groups what their needs are. No point in creating a whole safeguarding plan and then realising the people you're trying to protect.

didn't even get a say. It's about listening, active listening. Maybe somebody feels excluded because they're the only one who doesn't know how to kneel, stand, or do the sign of a cross. Maybe they come from a culture where authority figures are less trusted. Faith communities need to take a leaf out of Sunday School's book. Raise your hand, ask questions, listen, listen to the answers.

I go back to that really simple approach, that sensitivity begins with listening, begins with learning, actually probably really begins with unlearning and then the listening. People need to feel.

safe, they need to feel welcomed and they need to feel appreciated. And by creating safe spaces for dialogue and offering support that's tailored, churches, places of faith can ensure that safeguarding practices are both sensitive and responsive to the unique vulnerabilities of marginalised groups.

Madi (17:14)
and so interesting that listening has been such a theme on this podcast. I think in one way or another, every single guest has come back to that idea that the people that we're protecting, which is everyone, we need to listen and take into account those unique experiences and actually ask groups what are your needs and what are your experiences. And like you highlighted, that's so important, especially when there's those tight-knit communities where

people are less likely to come forward because they don't want to be ostracized from their community and that sense of belonging and their own identity. And that makes me think about sort of those power dynamics that stop people coming forward in cases of abuse or speaking up if they witness or are aware of a situation that makes them uncomfortable. And what ways do these issues of power dynamics and sort of a systemic equality play into safeguarding concerns?

in faith communities. I wonder if you sort of have anything to say on that.

Anjum Mouj - She/her (18:10)
Wow, that's a powerful question. So it's a powerful question. know, power dynamics in faith communities often mean the higher up you go, the further away you are from the real issues. You know, it's like the 12 days of Christmas. Instead of getting pipers piping or drummers drumming, you're more likely to get the clergy protecting the clergy.

Madi (18:11)
Big topics.

Anjum Mouj - She/her (18:31)
bishops protecting bishops and everybody else downplaying the problem. Power dynamics, particularly in male-dominated hierarchical religious institutions, create significant safeguarding challenges and the protection of children. The Catholic Church sexual abuse crisis spanned decades and continents and the protection of abusers was prioritized over the protection of victims.

male clergy viewed as spiritual and moral authorities exploited this power to silence and intimidate victims in effect.

often children, women and those from lower socioeconomic backgrounds as well. you know, similarly actually it comes to mind for me that the Anglican Church of England, where safeguarding failures disproportionately affected lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans and queer individuals, systemic inequality played a significant role. Many victims refrained from reporting the abuse due to the gay, lesbian, bi and transphobia embedded in the church culture.

and those who did speak out were dismissed or stigmatised.

And this reflects how institutional power can compound existing social or societal inequalities, making it even harder for marginalised individuals to seek justice. And this is particularly concerning when leaders hold significant control over the community's narrative, potentially allowing abuses of power to go unchecked. It plays a role systemic inequality.

where members from a minoritised racial, cultural or socio-economic background find it harder to access resources, to gain access to resources if you like, or report concerns due to the fear of retribution or, as I said earlier, lack of trust. Basically, we've got to have very transparent systems for reporting safeguarding concerns, making sure that power's not concentrated in the hands of a few, but it's shared.

and that there's a counter ability built in. There's a delicate dance of power dynamics in a church. You've got your vicar, you've got your deacons, you've got the church mums who run every bake sale, and let's not forget the church wardens who seem to have keys to everything in any faith community.

how it can create blind spots and that's the biggie, that's the big issue. Leaders might unknowingly, or knowingly to be honest, allow certain voices to dominate, leaving marginalised groups in the shadow. Systemic inequality means that safeguarding concerns from people from different backgrounds might be dismissed as, it's just not how we do things here. You know, it's a bit like joining a choir but never getting a solo.

Power dynamics leave people vulnerable if they don't feel that they can speak up.

Madi (21:18)
you can think of any examples, I guess, within religious groups or maybe not just an example we can learn from of how power has been shared effectively, sort of redistributed, especially to those groups that have been denied power previously. As you were speaking, I was thinking, I actually, can't think, doesn't come to mind, I can't think of any examples of how that's been done. And I don't know if you have any examples to sort of share with our listeners so they can.

think of them themselves, maybe they have their own ideas, but none came to me, so I thought I'd ask you.

Anjum Mouj - She/her (21:48)
a great question because of the, you know, there's a big suppression in terms of reporting and, you know, thinking about how people and, you know, outsiders in many faith-based settings are, know, classically seen as, well, people that are different or marginalized are classically seen as outsiders or morally suspect, actually.

You know, it's certainly for me in terms of my both Islamic and lesbian identity, you know, a lot of my salient pieces of my identity are met with skepticism of, to be honest, outright hostility. So in terms of the strategies to adopt in terms of a greater sense of belonging for people who feel excluded or vulnerable within our faith-based settings.

We really, you know, it's the basics, you make sure everybody gets a proper cuppa after service, you know. You know, no one feels welcome with a weak cuppa tea, I can tell you that. Jokes aside, faith institutions need to be really proactive about creating opportunities for everybody to participate. That could be small groups, it could be volunteering.

or even just making sure that the sermon is relevant to all members of the congregation. In terms of some of the effective measures that we've done Islamically, we are sort of working very much with the mosques to have inclusive mosques. And actually in parts of Europe, we've seen that. And to, in a sense, the feminization of Islam.

thinking very clearly that cis men have had the narrative and held the narrative for far too long and actually communities working together has been really important. Leaders openly encouraging feedback about inclusion has really helped. You know, a bit like you might have a church suggestion box but without the anonymous notes about the flower arrangements if you like, actually really truly doing something, seeking to...

diversify leadership. If you keep hearing the same instruction, sermon, lead from the same types of people, it's like going to the same nativity play year after year. Eventually you just tune out and including women, people of colour, lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans, queer voices in leadership. That's what really needs to happen. you know, we decide on leadership. We select leadership.

If we decide that the community leaders are the men within our faith-based institutions, then that's who they are. But if we decide that actually we're going to go to the Lesbian, Gay, Trans, Bisexual, Queer project, then they're our community leaders. If we go to the Women's project, they're our community leaders. Those people in those projects will also be people with faith. So it's about really

breaking down the barriers that keep certain groups silent. Another strategy could be about setting up safeguarding buddies during community events. know, after Christmas services, actually what we know in terms of the data is that more people show up. you know, that's the only time of year that people do show up. So these buddies could be there to chat about safeguarding, provide information, and help people understand.

that the place of faith or the church is a safe place to speak up. We can deconstruct the traditional male-centric power structures. In the Southern Baptist Convention, sexual abuse scandal, there was really illustrated for me the male-dominated leadership and the dangers of that in religious institutions.

Basically, there were over 700 victims of sexual abuse in the Southern Baptist Convention churches and many victims were women who felt alienated from leadership and unable to seek help from predominantly male pastors. So the solution, you know, kind of feels really important for us to be thinking about greater gender diversity in leadership and of course safeguarding.

roles. Of course churches and places of faith need to create safe, confidential spaces where vulnerable members can report abuse without a fear of retribution. And we'll know that the Church of England has begun to implement independent safeguarding processes which remove some of the risks associated with reporting abuse to those within the institution.

And this shift, I think, really represents a necessary step in creating a culture of transparency and support.

Churches, places of faith can foster belonging by first of all just recognising those who might feel excluded or vulnerable for whatever the identity, intersecting identities might be about and actively involve these individuals in the life of the faith institution, whether that's through representation.

in the decision making process, leadership roles or community activities. For myself, I'm a real believer in inclusivity training for staff and volunteers to make sure that there's an understanding of the different needs of the members of the faith and practical steps like making sure that there's physical accessibility, translation services.

tailoring pastoral care to specific cultural contexts. Well, that can go a long way in making people feel welcomed and valued, creating regular opportunities for feedback where people can voice concerns, suggestions about how the community can be more inclusive.

Obviously true belonging is all about, you know, not just that people feel safe, but that they've got a meaningful space in the communities for future. Otherwise we just so now, why would we go? Why would we seek belonging in a community that doesn't allow us to belong? So taking those proactive steps to ensure that those that feel excluded feel truly welcome and...

valued begins with leadership and I think that's just a really important way of looking at that. Dismantling power structures, that privilege cisgender male voices over others and creating safe spaces for discussion and closure really help us. Faith communities engaging, having proactive mechanisms in terms of their outreach strategies.

particularly towards underrepresented groups, making sure that safeguarding provisions exist for them too, for children and for vulnerable adults or adults at risk.

Madi (28:23)
you for those really amazing, very practical tips that I think lots of people listening can really start to implement into their safeguarding culture, particularly providing that training on diversity, inclusion and belonging so more people are aware of the things that we've been talking about today. And thank you also for sharing your own personal experience and your experience of belonging to particular groups and how that's sort of come across in your safeguarding as well. One quick last question.

I was wondering if there's sort of a main change or sort of what changes do you hope to see in the future of safeguarding practices when it comes to diversity, inclusion and belonging? I know it's hard to pick one, but if you can, if you could, know, rave a magic wand, what would that change be?

Anjum Mouj - She/her (29:06)
Well, I love what you've said there about training because I think training is one of those. It's not a tick box. It is really about our moment-by-moment interactions and how we engage. So training around inclusive behaviors, training around sort of cultural intelligence, training around unconscious bias, just thinking about how we engage.

Leaders need training that goes beyond of course legal safeguarding requirements and it includes education on intersectionality, gender dynamics, LGBTQ issues. Religious leaders have just got to be willing to confront their own biases in ways that religious teachings have been used to uphold harmful power dynamics. We've got to have some real

a critical analysis and understanding about that, promoting transparency and accountability, as I said, within institutions, making sure that safeguarding measures are robust, independent and inclusive. You know, all of these things are absolutely critical in terms of us getting to that point. Leadership in that term, just to follow from that, if you don't mind. It's like a...

just because we've just had Christmas, I guess for me, it's that leadership needs to be more than just a shepherd looking over their flock at Christmas. They need to be out there understanding the different needs of their community. And of course, as I said, this means proper training on safeguarding issues that go beyond the basics. Addressing power dynamics, gender, and intersectionality, of course, are part of the framework of that.

The future safeguarding practices need to be more like a Christmas carol sing-along, if you like, where everybody gets a say rather than just one person leading the whole thing. Faith-based organizations could prioritize. It's a lot of the work that we do around safeguarding that survivor-centered approaches.

so that we ensure that experiences and voices of survivors, particularly from marginalised groups, are central in shaping safeguarding policies. I feel a crucial change would be, could be, if you like, to establish independent safeguarding bodies within the power, or with the power rather, to investigate allegations.

I guess I'm also saying that they have to have the power of independence, so therefore it's without the interference from the church hierarchy or the faith-based institution hierarchy. Additionally, we need to shift away from faith first to people first. Policies should focus less on protecting the institution and more on protecting individuals.

regardless of their background. In the future, I'd really love to see safeguarding becoming second nature in faith communities, it's like, you know, knowing the words to the Qul or Jerusalem. We need more open conversations about race, culture, and identity in faith-based organizations, making it normal to talk about these things rather than shying away from them.

Policies have got to be living documents, updated regularly, reflecting the real diversity of the congregation. And of course, let's hope that everybody feels comfortable enough to raise concerns, knowing that they'll be heard, knowing that they'll be acting upon.

sort of like a church bell, but instead of calling people to service, it's ringing out for fairness and protection for all. I really hope to see a future where safeguarding policies in religious institutions are truly intersectional.

It's kind of that, you know, not just recognizing but actively addressing how overlapping systems of oppression, patriarchy, racism, lesbian, gay, bi, trans, queer, phobia contribute to abuse. You know, some of the Catholic Church, the Jehovah's Witnesses scandals that I've talked about show the dangers of unchecked institutional power and the need for independent oversight. So reflecting the diversity.

of congregations going in that direction and churches of course as you know and other faith-based institutions have begun to move in this direction by engaging with external safeguarding experts and that's got to be a positive step to dismantling systemic inequality. Safeguarding within faith communities going forward has to be I think synonymous with equality.

justice, fairness, and inclusion. And it's got to be a living dynamic framework that's updated, know, intersectional at the core. The safeguarding really requires a, you particularly around sexual abuse, requires a critical look at real life cases through understanding intersectionality.

the John Smith case which involved Christian camps, abuse there, tied to the Church of England. So you'll know Smith targeted boys under the guise of religious discipline. And the Church didn't just fail to protect these children, it didn't even see the danger, in part because the boys came from privileged backgrounds where silence was actually the norm.

Now imagine if these children had come from a minoritised background speaking up.

would have been even harder with some of the cultural and racial dynamics adding extra layers of fear and shame. diversity...

For me, suppose what I'm saying here is diversity and safeguarding means knowing who might be at risk and understanding why they might stay silent. One of the greatest challenges overcoming those ingrained traditions and resistance to change. In many faith communities, there's often a sentiment of, we've always done it this way, which can be difficult to navigate when we're promoting inclusion.

Another challenge is addressing the misconception that safeguarding only pertains to specific groups, like children, when in fact it applies to all vulnerable individuals, including the elderly, disabled, minoritised groups, engaging people in discussions like racial inclusion, gender identity and cultural differences.

Working with people that are disabled helps us to really listen to people, especially in more conservative settings, you like. So, sensitively involving representatives from these groups in creation and monitoring of safeguarding policies, offering platforms for these voices to be heard, is critical in providing specific support, if you like.

for marginalized individuals, really, really unpicking some of the power dynamics that are deeply embedded in faith communities, reinforced by hierarchy and tradition. Leadership, of course, is central to fostering an inclusive safeguarding cultures. know, leaders have got to model inclusive behaviors and challenge forms of discrimination. I suppose...

I hope to see safeguarding policies really evolve in a very living, dynamic, ever-changing and inclusive policy frameworks.

Madi (36:29)
I hope that everyone listening to this is ready to go out and really listen to people within their communities and groups so we can be a more inclusive environment where everyone feels like they belong. Thank you so much, Anjan, for your time. It's been so wonderful hearing all your insights and thank you for your wonderful advice.

Anjum Mouj - She/her (36:48)
Thank you so much. Thank you for inviting me. it's been really great chatting to you. You had some really thought-provoking questions there. And I hope not just for me, but for other people to be able to grab hold of those questions and use them as a reflection tool would be absolutely wonderful. So thank you so much.